Rules Overhaul [FORUM WIDE DISCUSSION]

[mrcrazycakes]

I think those of us with canons that want to keep them should be able to keep them without having to re-apply for them. You can still blast their histories and abilities, but why make us re-audition if we've already been a-ok'd for it? Dropping us all on Traverse Town means they'll be there anyways, and the 'grandfathering in' thing seems to only concern abilities and character strength anyways. We've been here for a long time, and it doesn't seem fair to punish us for having been members of the forum before it got closed down. Same goes for OCs; if we like them and want to still play them, we shouldn't be forced to drop them and re-apply for them just because you're afraid of us being over-powered.

If you're that terrified of it, just drop us all back to level one and get rid of our abilities; problem solved. But I still think it's unfair to punish us just because we're having a change of management and building a new system. We need some kind of compensation for it, I agree, but making us drop our characters just seems totally unnecessary. Having the character doesn't make them overpowered if you take away their abilities, which would solve the 'grandfathering problem'. If you ask me, no one is really uber powerful enough to be that much above anyone else with the current system, which you're probably going to gut anyways and replace with an entirely new one.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not going to be able to hang around if I'm suddenly left with no characters to play; I do NOT want to type up another six auditions and applications because having them automatically makes them uber for some reason.

So to recap:
A) Making us lose our entire characters is silly; we don't need to be punished for trying to have fun on an RP forum.

B) You can solve the grandfathering problem by nulling our abilities or by upping the number of starting abilities new members get (Not a lot of us were very powerful to begin with, and me and DSA at least are spread over multiple characters.) or by introducing a new system.

C) If you're going to take away our abilities and hard-earned junk we bought, we need compensation (Agreeing on that point)

D) I don't see the apparent 'problem' with grandfathering; you act like anyone besides Yuffie could kill any member that appeared in one hit.

[The Mysterious Mr. Jameson Q.]

I'd rather the old members of DS be punished, than punish the potentially new members of DS. Though honestly, punish? A better word is sacrifice. You do realize that everyone here is an old member, and that we all stand to lose everything we "worked" for, right?

You have only scratched the surface of the Grandfathering conundrum, and that's a problem. There are absolutely too many things to bring up, so I'm going to list a bunch, and you can come to the other conclusions on your own.

• New infrastructure and procedure would conflict with old applications of any kind.
  
• Full compensation for old members would mean a financial gap of thousands of munny over any new members.
  
• Canon characters would play new roles in a new timeline, very different to that of DS which was very specific. Reapplying would be necessary because it is a different character.
  
• "Blasted histories and abilities" do not go far enough in addressing the needs of a "new" forum. Everyone should start from square one, not as a punishment but because that was then and this is now. It would be like wanting your scrabble score from last week to carry over in terms of your monopoly money this week.
  
• New members on a site with an already established community have a harder time integrating than on sites where the community is fresh.
  
• They have an even harder time when all the veteran members are given major priority, just because they have clocked more hours on the website in the past.
  
• They have an even harder time when, because of the priority given to veteran members, they feel punished for not being on staff, or being part of the old community.
  
• Restarting an RP forum is a serious undertaking that doesn't often work. A restart requires new and fresh members, who have got that shiny look in their eye. What we don't need is a system that inherently favors older members, and does not generate interest in younger, newer ones.

That's a short list.

Here's a rebuttal to the ABCD arguments you laid out.

A) You're not being punished. You may feel that way because you had 3 of the more desirable major canons, and 2 of the more desirable minor canons, but that's due to an understandable lack in perspective. The one who stands to lose the most is often the one who is the most cautious.

Unfortunately, there are two very important things running against you. 1, you did have your fun. And that's great. Your legacy on DS shows you found it fun enough to stick around and do a lot in terms of roleplay. But that's in the past, and now its time to move on and start over. Just because you were captain of the volleyball team, that does not immediately make you captain of the Yearbook Club.

2, new DS should be new, and for it to be new, for a new "operating system" to survive, the only sensible thing to do is to clear out the old. My personal opinions on canons and OCs aside, if we grandfather everyone in, and then change a rule about character apps, suddenly everyone has to change their characters. But if we all start anew, we can design the technical aspects of the site more appropriately, and no one has to go back and change and rechange their applications because we decided to jump the gun.

Everyone stands to lose something here. If we choose this road, everyone makes a sacrifice, but if we keep healthy channels of communication in line with our understanding, our perspective, we can make a better DS than ever before.

B) It's not as simple as you make it out to be. It is assumed, everyone will have their abilities nulled on restart, as all character profiles would go into the archive at that point. A permanent increase in what people can get from Creation Credits causes trouble. We would potentially have to re-balance the prices, skillpoint requirements, damage, and/or the general scheme of a DS economy. As soon as we change those things to address the new issues of balance, we already have a new problem on our hands; what do we do with the old members who were grandfathered in? Do they have to be "punished" (ie, retconned) or do they get grandfathered again?

While a new system would be totally cool, I think most are currently in line with using the old infrastructure. We have the resources to add new modules and aspects to the old ability system and shops. So we're not limited to the old content, but at this point in time, I don't think anyone wants to commit time or resources into rewriting the system.

However, no one is stopping you from copy/pasting key ingredients such as Bio stats, appearance, and personality, where appropriate.

C) I want to take this time to stress this; we should not need compensation. The package idea I proposed is to offer very limited compensation, and is counterbalanced by offers given to new members.

D) I hope my list of issues with grandfathering has already addressed this point.

[White]

New infrastructure and procedure would conflict with old applications of any kind.

^That. I can't tell you how much I agree with that. I'm almost positive we're not going to be having the same applications. Based off the original, yes, but there are going to be enough changes that will require the application to be updated to reflect those changes.

[Rocket!]

You're being a fair bit on the mean side with your rebuttal, Brezz. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but please, tone it down.

I'm going to put up a checklist, and then talk about grandfathering.

On The Table

Locked Worlds
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
Restart plot/forum on one world, have worlds "discovered" in accordance with plot so as to give worlds individual emphasis, Moogle network of transportation for nigh free between discovered worlds
Outstanding Issues:
Will result in changes/removal or preexisting characters, canons


Insanely Slow Character Progression
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
Increase Munny-per-Post, Skill Points-per-Turn In


Weak Warrior-type Characters
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
None


People Are Discouraged From Auditioning
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
Auditions become free~!


The Plot Killed The Site
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
Streamline and focus the community by starting on one world (Traverse Town?) and having the plot go to worlds one-by-one from there


Abilities Lack Flexibility
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
Rephrase abilities into their basic parts such that appearance/execution/etc., but not effect, can be manipulated uniquely


Grandfathering
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
None beyond that there should be compensation of a sort; Split between dumping all characters/bringing them back in w/o prior abilities and the like


Ad Drive
Prevailing Suggestion so far:
YES
[/center]


In regards to grandfathering, it's too much to say it's impossible to bring over old characters if we're keeping a fair amount of the preexisting infrastructure. Let's start talking about those systems and rules, taking in account the notion of increased munny and Skill Points, and decide afterwards how much can be brought over, and how much should. Hands down, I agree that the difference between incoming members and veterans shouldn't be so different that it becomes impossible to balance the plot events. But rather than call for a total character reset, I think limiting what can be brought over is a more fair compromise.

I can't say I agree that current canon holders should have to drop all their canons and reopen them in the name of community openness. I'll agree that, if we're going to be concentrated on one world, then there'll need to be some openness and that DS will need to seem a little less "used" to the average passerby. But rather than ask for a complete drop, can't we let canon holders keep at least one of their canons without asking for another audition?

In terms of compensation, I expect Brezzen's suggestion of packages will be the best option in terms of flexibility and options. They're not going to break the bank, but anything more would be the same as handicapping new members. I'll be honest in saying I wouldn't be surprised if we had to come back and adjust the figures based on future conversations regarding abilities and systems, so we should stay flexible on those until after the rest's set in stone. /rubs crystal ball

That said, I don't think it'd be remiss of me to suggest a title or group for all of us who've been around and had our fun from before the coming update. "Dream Sequence Veteran", or the like, with access to the Secret Shop-- something new members will be able to get to in their own right with time as it is-- or a bonus of similar magnitude that doesn't step up and exclude newcomers. And that title, or course, for a badge of pride on top of the aforementioned packages.

@katsumi:
D-Links! Oh, that was actually in the works for the Dream Sequence 4.0 update! We'd worked out the general system back in January, if the posts I've found in the staff boards are anything to go by. I think it'll need fixing up if we're to use it, but for what it's worth:

D-Links were going to be items in the form of Wayfinder-like objects that could be purchased. The item could be used once per battle to give you access to someone else's custom abilities. D-Links had "Levels" and "Classes" - A D-Link's Level (from 1-3) would determine how long (from 3-7 rounds) you'd be able to use the other end of the link's custom abilities in rounds, while a D-Link's Class (from C to S) would determine the strength (Weak to Legendary) of the abilities you could use. Levels were going to be upgradable from purchasing upgrades in the Secret Shop, while Classes would go up with every thread/epic thread (wasn't determined yet) you have with a specific person.

(Example: Yuffie has an epic thread with Squall, makes a Class C D-Link with 'im. Yuffie then has an epic thread with Kairi, makes a Class C D-Link with her. Yuffie then has another epic thread with Squall - that D-Link is now Class B. Kairi's link with Yuffie is still Class C.)

I think, depending on how interested everyone is, we could make this into a system with a fair bit more straightforwardness to it - I don't expect the system above to work well unless it's streamlined and fixes a few potential options for abuse, such as where a relatively new member could get access to Legendary abilities.

That said, beyond what all's above, here's what we'll need before we open our doors again:

Ability and System Revisions as Needed
The priority here is fun: changes should be made to make the forum a fair bit less confusing and a fair bit more fun

Agree On Changes In This Thread
Will be determined with Poll announced over mass email

A New Skin
Currently Underway, along with a new ad to go with it

Discuss and Nominate Staff
This is important, but discussion on this right now would distract from the topics at hand. This will be seen to in an open thread after this here thread's fulfilled its use.

Update the Character Profile/Rules/Boards/Etc. According to Changes
Yes, well... later, huh?

Board URL/Name/Admin Account Recovery/changes
In progress, eh?

[/b]


The hot topic just this second looks to be abilities and systems, given what all's at stake from 'em. I'm of the opinion that there does need to be consideration made for warrior-types: they're very easily taken down by mage types.

Will this be a non-issue with the upped munny and Skill Points, allowing warriors to focus accordingly, or do we need to think up an alternative? It's fairly obvious that the Spellbook items didn't solve the issue like we hoped it would: should that be removed, or are Spellbooks something worth keeping?

[Secret Agent Cat]

Can I submit a skin? Dx no, ok..

[mrcrazycakes]

Wow, I didn't realize I could use my opinions themselves to push buttons! Usually I have to put in some effort to making someone mad!


But now I can give my opinions in order!

1) Locked Worlds:
I don't really have any objections with the mognet thing; I'm sure Traverse Town will be plenty for the people we get until the next world gets unlocked. It's not like we'll have four billion new members within the first week; things usually don't move on that fast.

2) Slow character progression:
Hey, I remember pitching that idea! I still stand by it. Bumping up the Munny per post and the number of skill points we get per thread will make things move a >lot< faster, maybe bumping down some of the insanely high-level ability prices too. Some of those are insanely expensive.

3) Weak Warriors:
I think something that could fix this are defense-bolstering passive abilities, reduced item shop or increased HP gain per ability purchased. Another way to do it is remove the link between HP and abilities, but that might need people to do a lot of work on previously existing systems. I like the idea of passive abilities that boost defense and attack or give you more HP for warrior-ish characters though; then they're not as bad off as they were before.

4) People discouraged from auditioning:
I remember saying something about this, too! Still in support of a free audition.

5) Plot:
Well, we'd need some dedicated plot workers to keep things moving along, but that plan sounds good to me! No objections here! We should probably also put in some provisions for people who end up not being able to post so that they don't automatically lose their character like what happened with Mickey.

6) Ability flexibility:
No arguments from me! Just don't ask me to help; I'm not good with that kind of thing.

7) Grandfathering:
I'm okay with my characters getting punched back to level one, but I don't particularly want to drop all of them. I happen to like playing my current cast of characters, though I can't really say for anyone else. Putting us back at level one with a compensation packet thing would work just fine with me; solves the problems I have.

8) Ad Drive:
Three time's charm! I like it when people take me seriously!

9) Ability & System Overhaul:
If that's what you guys decide on. The stat system is kind of complex to wrap your head around with all that's going on, or it was for me at least.

10) Not really anything to say about this one, huh?

11) New Skin
Yay, a new skin! I wonder what kinds of neat tricks'll get put in to this one?

12) Staff elections
Sounds like fun!

13) Update stuff
Not something to worry about right now, I agree ^^

So uh... Yep, that's what I have to say about things right now! No other comments in my head.

[Spring [Complex]]

^You totally can and should =P!

Thank you Rocket, I think you've put everything on the path of fair and fair with your list. I find your compromise of allowing a veteran to keep one canon to be quite reasonable, though they should still submit a new app once the new apps are done and all that good stuff. Oh and to address Weak Warrior types, I've got a few solutions:

1. More skills, BBS introduced a heck of a lot of them, let's take inspiration and do them up.
2. The Class structure and SP system is totally biased in favour of Mages, to fix it we need to be giving warriors and others more abilities per Tier.
3. This is more of an in-general but man the Tier/Classes was a huge grind fest last time, can we change up the amount of SP needed to achieve stuff, as well as ensure we give out a bit more.

The D-Link idea sounds like something to strongly push since it encourages roleplay, though I'd have to sit and read it over some more before that particular version could be agreed upon in good faith.
Lastly, really feeling convinced about Traverse town being the place and allowing everyone to be there xD It'll be chaotic and hectic but it'll do us all some good to role play together, as a community (Le GASP!).

[White]

So you guys know, he wasn't really mad. That's just how he is sometimes. -ruffles Brez's hair-

• I'm all for the mognet as well, as well as Traverse Town being the starting point. It gives people the chance to be more neutral with their characters, and not having to make them strictly fit into the world, like what would happen in Atlantica. But that wouldn't really matter, would it? If the canons are available in Traverse Town, wouldn't people be able to make their character from ANY home world? It makes sense if our plan is that everyone got transported to Traverse Town.
  
  

  I feel that we should also address the one character on one world at a time business. Perhaps a bit more leniency with it? Not all threads need to be completed, but no more threads can be created on the previous world? Unless we want to nix that idea completely.

  
  
  Slow Character Progression
  
• I like the more munny per post, as well as more skill points per thread completion. But I think with those two, it would be enough to balance. Lowering higher prices doesn't really seem necessary to me if everything else is increased. I get the feeling that it would be too much.
  
  Weak Warriors
  
• I like the idea Crazy has about having HP not related to abilities. Coming up with a new system would be difficult, but I think it'd be worth it if we could hammer all the kinks out with a new system. The discussion last time to fix the current system was absolutely AWFUL.
  
  What I'm thinking is each class has a starting base HP, then their skill points go on to further determine their HP. Some abilities could also come with an HP bonus, only ones that would make sense of course, and we can have HP boosts available in the Secret Shop. Just a couple thoughts...
  
  Auditions
  
• This I don't really have much of an opinion for since I could really care less about having a canon for myself. But I also find the idea of having an auditions fee really stupid. If we would limit anything, we should limit the amount of times one person can audition for one canon in x amount of time, cuz that shit can get annoying.
  
  Plot
  
• Plot definitely needs to be reworked. That's not quite my forte, so I don't plan on going into too much depth with it. All I know is that it shouldn't be so mysterious. We need some answers and stuff to work on. Just sitting around waiting for something to happen is not fun.
  
  Ability Flexibility
  
• I'm assuming this means the way they're written makes them too strict to be creative with (oh my, I'm a genius). Anyways. Just rewrite them to get the RAW, BASIC IDEA of what they do. I dunno how many of them already do that, so I dunno how helpful my suggestion is.
  
  Ad Drive
  
• My god. As much as I find it a pain to advertise, we're gonna need it. I think we need a whole new proboards forum, actually. Obviously we'll keep this one, but I think if we're going for a fresh start we want a fresh board so people will be more likely to accept that it's NEW.
  
  Ability and System Overhaul
  
• This I have little opinion on, but I'm in favor of. It's certainly something I'd like to see as it's being worked out.
  
  Poll
  
• Haha, we'll see how that goes. ;P Poll sounds like a good idea, though. Nice thinking.
  
  New Skin
  
• All for a new skin. ALL FOR. A NEW. SKIN. Yup.
  
  Discuss/Nominate Staff
  
• I thought we had already done this. Of course the main admin will have to be picked out again, but that shouldn't take very long.
  
  Updated Affected Stuffs
  
• That will require very little discussion....
  
  Compensation
  
• I like what was suggested. That's all I really have to say.
  

[Geizt]

Alright, lemme try and get some thoughts out and about while I'm here.

Character progression: Just stick my vote alongside those of White and Brez.

Warrior Problems: I've got a bit of an odd idea to stick out. Perhaps the class your character decides just how their abilities affect their health growth. It's like in an RPG, where the guy sword and heavy armor trades versatile attacks for boatloads of health, while the guy who puts on his hat and wizard robes does the opposite.

What I'm trying to say is that maybe all the abilities tie to hp, but warriors get more hp per ability, or wizards get less, and other classes get varied amounts based on what they are. There would be some exceptions, like Warriors not getting as much hp from a spell as they would from a physical technique, but I think I've gotten at least the gist of my idea out there. Moving on.

Auditions: Free sounds fine. I don't really care, since I'm gonna avoid getting canons myself. Limiting the number of auditions, like White said, is a good idea though.

Ad Drive: A pain in the ass, but a necessary pain in the ass. White might be onto something about needing a new board though. Perhaps further discussion is necessary on this topic in another thread.

That's all I've got really.

[The Mysterious Mr. Jameson Q.]

In reference to this post, I have pored over it twice on two separate days to give authority to my next assertion.

Never once in that post did I insult or say an untrue thing about Crazy. It was not slanderous, nor did it have any obvious aim to hurt him.

It was straightforward, and in several specific instances, rude. However, you might have looked over the sentence where it also pays homage to something brings to the table as a person engaged in this discussion.

I maintain that wanting to inform the people engaged in discussion about the consequences of their stance is not mean.

And lastly, as always, despite my opinions on the matter there are ethical and technical ramifications to grandfathering characters. I encourage people not to support it.

When I'm done writing this paper, I'll post a more diverse palate of opinions.

[Rocket!]

You're right. "Mean" was a bit much, and there wasn't any particularly blunt interest in insulting Crazy.

I'd appreciate it if this could be a non-issue though-- we've got plenty to work our way through, and drama's not going to help any. xD

So, liiiiiiiiiiittle less snark, Crazy? ^^

Don't have too much time, so I'll make this a quickie, skipping over a bit too much (^^:

I definetly want to hear a bit more on the getting a new board front! xD Could we talk a bit more about the why's and whatnots of leaving this one?

I'm willing to start tackling ability flexibility later today in a seperate thread. Will link! ^^

I'm not sure there was a one char per world limit. o.o; Was there? Will there be?

@katsumi: I'll show you the general layout I've got over MSN later, and we can have some muse time! There's going to be a bit more engineering than usual this go around, an' I could use a second pair of eyes. ^^;

Will reply more direct-like later, but... yeah!

[Geizt]

The reason a new board might be needed is because there are already ads out here, there, and everywhere with the url for this board on them. Ads and such will get jumbled up, and then things get nutty. A new board will present a fresh face for the new site, or something to that effect. I'll admit that I'm not putting it in the best of terms, but I think you get what I mean, right?

[White]

Rocket!

I'm talking about the rule in regards to world travel. The one where a certain character can't roleplay on another world unless all the other threads on the previous world are completed.

^No me gusta. :I

[Spring [Complex]]

Geizt's reasons for the new board are correct. New board means that we can attain a new root admin as well, which solves another issue. Speaking of which, I know there's plenty to work on but working without some semblance of leadership or even just someone to make for a tie breaker or something is not the best type of working. We'll probably want to elect new staff once every issue from old DS is on the table in check list form. At which point we'll want a new thread where we tackle distribution of work/checking off the check list. We'll also want a seperate thread to discuss staff elections. Lastly, I'd love to see what Rocket and Kats are up to skin wise, learning experience and all that.

[The Mysterious Mr. Jameson Q.]

My thoughts-

New Board:
A bad idea.

We've got this one, with a ton of stuff already here. Codes are already here, boards are already here, even important rule threads are already here. It requires some janitorial work, but not nearly the amount of effort that would go into creating a new board. In addition, in starting a new board we would be obligated to create a new name. In creating a new name, it would be seen as stealing if we were to use DS infrastructure. Ethical conundrum. So the entire concept of starting a new board is in direct conflict with the idea of restarting DS.

It is a bad, bad idea.

Locked Worlds:
Obvious proponent of this idea, and the moogle network. The outstanding issue of character profiles listed here is a poor organizational choice. That outstanding issue is a result of the overarching struggle to restart a forum. It is its own issue.

As for characters stuck on one world, I support that rule. I don't see the point of having a travel system, or of having a plot based upon traveling from world to world, if characters have leniency in how often they can switch worlds.
If, for example, someone gets stuck in a thread that does not move, and they want to switch worlds, all they should have to do is post [END THREAD], and purchase a ticket to the next world.

This rule may eventually be dumbed down, or repealed, but should not be at forum's start.

[Gotta go to class, More to come later]